Canadian music icon Carole Pope is a fearless provocateur and queer trailblazer whose unapologetic sexuality reshaped Rock and Roll. From underground 1970s Toronto to opening for David Bowie, Pope’s incendiary lyrics and magnetic presence shattered expectations of what a woman – let alone a lesbian – could be onstage.
Her legendary life and career are explored in the monumental new documentary Antidiva: The Carole Pope Confessions written and directed by acclaimed Canadian filmmaker Michelle Mama. Though I have interviewed Carole many times since she published her bestselling memoir Anti Diva in 2000 – and in 2009 even spent a few days in Las Vegas with her and good friend, Toronto publicist Stephen Shinn – when I screened the critically-hailed Antidiva: The Carole Pope Confessions I discovered the backstory of one of the most singular artists and revered queer elders of our time. Through archival treasures, electrifying performances, and present-day vérité, director Michelle Mama captures Pope in all her glory.
The film features insightful interviews with k.d. lang, Peaches, Jann Arden, Rufus Wainwright, and Carole’s soul mate and Rough Trade band mate Kevan Staples, filmed before he died of cancer in March 2025. I recently sat down with Carole, now 75, and filmmaker Michelle Mama for a candid Q&A about their new doc.
How did this documentary come about?
Michelle Mama : Carole loomed large for me as a young nascent queer person, and because of the privilege of living in Toronto and being able to go to shows, I was able to meet Carole in real life through a friend of mine, and said to myself, “Goddam someone better make a doc about Carole Pope soon!” The first doc stuff we shot was in January 2023.
Carole, what was your reaction when Michelle asked you about making this film?
Carole Pope : I feel like I’m under-appreciated as a singer, songwriter, and co-founder of Rough Trade, and I want people to know about us.
The doc reveals a lot of new information about Kevan and Carole. In her memoir and lyrics, Carole can be very frank and candid, but Michelle, you worked hard to get Carole to speak openly on camera. How did you manage that?
Michelle Mama : Carole comes from an era where she guards her privacy for very good reasons. She’s had some unsavoury interactions, and comes from an era where a rock star can be mysterious. You don’t need to know what they have for breakfast or how many bowel movements they’ve had in a day. She comes from an era where she likes to keep some things to herself. Originally I was going to use Carole’s audiobook of Anti Diva as a narrative spine in the film. But ultimately it slowed the film down. We got good material from our first two interviews, then for our third primary interview, we had to go deep, so Carole and I had a come-to-Jesus conversation. I was like, “We’re going to have to talk about some stuff today.” She was ready at that point. She was like, “I got to get these guys off my ass, so I’m going to do this interview!”
Carole, were you intimidated about opening up on camera?
Carole Pope : Probably because it was on camera. Because I have written two memoirs now, so I don’t mind opening up that way. But some things are absolutely sacred and private.
Michelle Mama : And we totally respected that. We went as far as Carole was comfortable with.
Carole, this film shows how deeply appreciated you are today.
Carole Pope : I would have liked to been more appreciated and supported by our record company – not True North, but our distributor, CBS. They screwed us around when it came to touring with Bowie, and we had very bad luck in the U.S. with our record deals.
Michelle, how was it recruiting your all-star interviewees?
Michelle Mama : Everybody was an instant yes! George Stroumboulopoulos said, “I didn’t have to read the whole email!” That felt like a message too. I was not the only one who thinks Carole hasn’t gotten her due. Jann Arden agrees with me, so does k.d. lang, Rufus Wainwright, and so does George. Everybody fell over themselves to participate and give their flowers to Carole for all the inspiration she’s given them.
Carole, what was it like for you to watch this film the first time?
Carole Pope : I was pretty happy with it, and kind of shocked because I hadn’t seen any clips of everybody. And it was great looking at that old footage of us. Normally I’m not that nostalgic at all, but I was like, “Wow! I was hot and we were fucking amazing!”
How awesome that Kevan was involved with the film. What was it like watching him on-screen the first time?
Carole Pope : It was bittersweet because he was ill. But I’m glad that Michelle was able to interview him and get him in the film.
What do you remember of Rough Trade’s final concert, held at Le Spectrum in Montreal in 1986. As I recall, one of the onstage curtains caught fire!
Carole Pope : Yes! The CBC was filming the show. I said, “The curtains are on fire!” They pulled us offstage and I remember Dusty Springfield and I had oxygen. I think she was smoking a cigarette! Then we went back on and finished the show!
Your stage wardrobe during your Rough Trade years was spectacular! Museums pieces! What happened to all of your clothes? Are any in storage?
Carole Pope: They no longer fit me – I was such a skinny person back then – so I either
donated or sold them. I am sad that I didn’t keep some stuff.
In the film there is footage of you going into your storage area. You have lots of stuff saved up over the years. We need a Carole Pope exhibition!
Carole Pope : I have photographs, press stuff and personal stuff. All of that. I really need to sort through it properly. There’s a lot.
I always loved your song “Shakedown” on the Cruising soundtrack. Could you tell us how you became involved with that film?
Carole Pope : I was home one day when somebody from William Friedkin’s office phoned me to ask if I’d be interested in coming to New York and possibly working on the film Cruising. So I flew to New York, and they showed me a really scary murder scene on a Moviola. I was sitting in the room with William Friedkin. I knew that the queers were very, very upset with the film. But there are gay serial killers, it’s not like there aren’t, and Kevan and I could not turn down the chance to work with Jack Nitzsche who did The Shining and worked with the Stones. We were like, “We have to work with him!” And he was such a freak!
In your documentary I think it was brave to include the scene at 2024 Toronto Pride where the stage manager cut off the sound while Carole was performing. It struck me as a generational lack of respect. How did you feel at the time, and how do you feel about it today?
Michelle Mama : I had steam coming out of my ears! I was screaming I was so furious. What you don’t know is Carole was just about to premiere her song “Play Fisty for Me” live for the first time, so my film crew was waiting for that. That was the story we were following – she’s finally going to sing the song live, let’s see if it becomes a gay anthem! So when they cut off the sound, we’re like, “What do you mean you fucking cut off the mic?” I’m running backstage trying to figure out what’s going on, then Carole walks offstage, and I’m yelling at a stage manager. It was as awful as you can imagine. It was terrible. The crowd was pissed off.
Carole Pope : I think they were very unprofessional. They were a lot of young kids and I don’t know how many of them know who I am. There’s always a stage manager telling you how many minutes you have left. I’ve never worked at a festival where that hasn’t happened. So it was very unprofessional on their part. And I do miss the Toronto Prides of yesteryear, they were more fun and way less corporate.
You have performed at hundreds of Prides over the years. How do you feel about Pride today?
Carole Pope : I think it’s become really commercialized, but there are some Prides, – like Reykjavik Pride – that are just amazing. I still think Pride is important, especially in small towns. When I play smaller Prides, I think people appreciate it more, they’re just so thrilled that you’re there.
Michelle, what are your thoughts on Carole’s place in queer history, and as a trailblazing pioneer in the cultural mainstream?
Michelle Mama : One of the most interesting things about making this film is how much straight men were obsessed with her. I came at this from the queer community – they’ve got her murals painted all over Toronto, and we celebrate her all the time. We know she’s the godmother of all things Rock and Roll for Canada and queer. That’s established. She’s on every list. What I didn’t understand is that super straight men in rural towns are obsessed with Carole Pope. I understood it tactically, of course, because she had all these No. 1 hits, and sold all those records. Someone was buying them, and all those boys were teenagers in the 70s and 80s. So she was not just a queer pioneer, she was a cool rock star who created this intense fandom that 50 years later is still very much alive.
Carole, in an interview years ago I asked you what it’s like being a living legend, and you replied, “I’m so over me.” How do you feel today? Because it’s never been more true: You are a living legend and icon.
Carole Pope : Well, I am over me. But I’m honoured that people think of me that way. I just really want people to appreciate the music that Rough Trade made, and the music that I’m making today.
INFOS | Antidiva: The Carole Pope Confessions screens on documentary Channel beginning on July 19, and on CBC Gem beginning on July 24.
